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 Post subject: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:06 pm
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Location: Montpellier - France
Hi everyone,

Since you are probably all music and/or series fans, or composers, or anything related in any way with shared data of all kind, i would ask everyone what you think about those laws ?

I personally am totally against those liberticidal laws, since it's a way to control people on the internet, their private data and what makes this place something this interesting.

For those who don't know what ACTA is, here is a short video explaining briefly the law : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8Xg_C2YmG0

About the Internet, it means we could be sued for all the videos we shared in this forums, since thoses videos or the musics in it are private, it would be considered as a copyright infringment.

Culture, knowledge would be available only for rich people who can afford all what's produced (music, movies, series, books and stuff) even not knowing what's really in it. In order to discover something, no more Youtube, no more Facebook, no more Dailymotion and stuff, no more sharing from friend to friend ; if we want to discover something, we will have to spend the enormous amount of money usually asked for this, even if the artists themselves don't get that much.

The struggle and the laws aren't about the MegaUpload event, but it's related. We can blame some MU users for downloading illegaly, of course, but a lot used to use MU as what it was, i mean an online storing service a lot of users or entreprises used for private files and in one blink of an eye, they lost everything because US's FBI decided to arrest those in charge of MegaUpload.

The fact that's strange is that the founders have been arrested just a day before they release a service named MegaBox who would have allow artists to sell their music directly on MegaUpload and get 90% receipts, that's more than the 10% or so they get for selling through Majors and stuff. It's even more chocking considering the price asked for an album. For someone rich it's not a problem but for a student who can barely survive and who loves art anyway, how is he supposed to do ? Do they think preventing him form getting access to free or cheap music will suddenly give him enough money to buy it ?


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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:11 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:05 am
Posts: 23
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news ... uments.ars

I highly recommend you read that. The large majority of anti-ACTA stuff on the internet is full of lies.

ACTA is still a bad thing, but it's nowhere near as bad as some groups are making it out to be.

Also, the MegaUpload thing mentions one thing that is not correct in piracy: Making millions out of it. They knew very well what their site was mainly used for. They actively searched for content to put on their site, and they refused to pull down the content when asked.


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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:21 pm 
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This whole SOPA thing has been frustrating for me. As a creator of intellectual property, I think it's a good idea to take steps to protect it and value it. But, these bills went so far out of control that I think they make the whole idea of protecting artists look absurd.

Public opinion is obviously swaying against these bills (for good reason), but I hope that everyone still recognizes that the concept of protecting artists and allowing them to make income from their work is, at its heart, a noble if not impossibly lofty intention.

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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:27 am 
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Location: Miami, FL USA
As with most things in this life, a balance needs to be achieved. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people dont want an Orwellian-like control of the internet but I also believe that most people wouldn't support the theft of intellectual property that was created by others either.


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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:06 pm
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Location: Montpellier - France
cube wrote:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/internet-awash-in-inaccurate-anti-acta-arguments.ars

I highly recommend you read that. The large majority of anti-ACTA stuff on the internet is full of lies.

ACTA is still a bad thing, but it's nowhere near as bad as some groups are making it out to be.


Well, thank you, but be sure I am well informed about it, i've read everything I could regarding ACTA, and it IS really a really bad thing. I am fully involved in pacific actions in order to aware people about it, so I know where we're going with that.

We know things for sure, just by reading and analyzing this law, or how it was ratified :
- caricature of deny of Democracy : not legitimate parliamentary involved in the process, negociated behind closed doors, an unelected "ACTA Committee" who will be allowed to, without consulting the People, make changes regarding this laws (this committee probably having more interests in helping those who pay the government than the People, by the way).
- our public and digital liberties violated : all our data will be controllable by private structures, like Internet Access Providers and stuff. Without the Justice needs to be involved in the process. It kinda reminds me Orwell's 1984 or Harrison's Make Room! Make Room! (Fleischer's Soylent Green), doesn't it ? No more private life, no more information sharing, no more culture spreading. You think I exaggerate ? Do you think those private businesses will take a chance and miss some income they could get by checking any infringment and suing the guilty ?
- I don't know how it is where you live, but here we have "generic medicines", it's medicines with "copied recipes" which gives the same results as some other medicines but for a far cheaper price. With ACTA, it will be allowed to seize or destroy medicines with only a suspected counterfeit. This can lower the access to medicines for thousands or millions of people, you can foresee the consequences here.
- patents for seeds and stuff will threaten agriculture and farmers will have less power and freedom to controll their production.

I think it's very very dangerous, more than you probably think.

cube wrote:
Also, the MegaUpload thing mentions one thing that is not correct in piracy: Making millions out of it. They knew very well what their site was mainly used for. They actively searched for content to put on their site, and they refused to pull down the content when asked.


Well, yes and no. I'm not saying Kim Dotcom was an angel. His business was sure cloudy and nobody says his website had only legal files. But there was some. How can the FBI shut down a website used by millions of people all around the world just like that ? What about premium accounts ? What about private legal files (okay it maybe wasn't the main use of Megaupload, but it was clearly one anyway) stored by regular users or entreprises ? How can the FBI make a lot of innocent people lose money and private data just like that ? "Who cares, it's just collateral damage" ?

Plus they had to do that the day just before they release the Megabox system. It would have satisfied users, artists and Megaupload. They planned in doing the same for movies. 90% money gave to artists through avertising income, 10% to Megaupload and free od charge for the users. How strange is that. Sure the Majors wouldn't have liked to be put aside since with the system, they would have not been useful anymore.

Bear McCreary wrote:
This whole SOPA thing has been frustrating for me. As a creator of intellectual property, I think it's a good idea to take steps to protect it and value it. But, these bills went so far out of control that I think they make the whole idea of protecting artists look absurd.

Public opinion is obviously swaying against these bills (for good reason), but I hope that everyone still recognizes that the concept of protecting artists and allowing them to make income from their work is, at its heart, a noble if not impossibly lofty intention.


Yeah I totally understand since I'm myself a creator of intellectual property and, even if i'm starting and sharing by creations for free, I plan to live from this so I know I will have to find a way to get money without becoming what I fight.

But this ACTA thing is way beyond the line, for the reasons I explained earlier. Plus it's so useless, since pirates will always find a way to bypass this law and get what they want anyway, and a lot of studies show that the music industry doesn't suffer from piracy and than pirates are those who also buy the more music and stuff.

And those actions, which won't stop piracy but will allow private structures to get full access to our private lives, will be paid by us, through taxes. I don't want to pay for someone to see in my computer !

I think while everybody in the world is fighting against this law (and not only young pirates), we us, artists, should think of other ways to share our music and also get money from it without stealing the buyers. There are many alternatives and i'm sure there are more we can think about.
For example, some groups sold their album through a website (like Nine Inch Nails or Radiohead) with a starting price of 0$. Yep, people could download the album and give what they want for it. It was a success and i'm sure they got a lot of money, and all for them, not for Majors.
Artists can also get money from show, concerts and sessions.
We can also think about what Megaupload tried to do with Megabox, a free access to music for users, the artists being paid by advertising.
And those are only few examples...

AdamCarlo wrote:
As with most things in this life, a balance needs to be achieved. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of people dont want an Orwellian-like control of the internet but I also believe that most people wouldn't support the theft of intellectual property that was created by others either.


Yeah of course, I totally agree ! That's why we have to fight this law but at the same time we need to think about other ways to sell/share music, preventing it from beeing "stolen" and allowing the artists to get money anyway.

The big problem is that most Majors won't step forward in the Internet, probably because they will get a lot less money than they do actually, while artists will get as much or more and listeners will spend much less. They push the governments to make stupid laws like this one, completely ignoring what Internet is and allows.

We are in a new age and as printing allowed everyone to share books and writings, Internet allows to share every digital data in a very easy way.

We need to exploit this advantage and make everyone benefit from it instead of trying to shut it down and controll everything and everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:12 am 
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Orneon...

Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for writing all that up! :)

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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:18 am 
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Location: York, Pennsylvania
Let me sum up my thoughts on some of this. Some may be related and some of it might not be. I think it's totally wrong to steal music or movies..etc etc from the artists. I know of some people who have told me " you're not stealing from the artists, you're taking it from the corporations "..and the corporations have enough money..blah blah blah..

Taking a movie or a song that you DID NOT pay for (by torrent or whatever) is stealing !!..now if a friend of yours went out and purchased a cd from a store and gave it to you, obviously that is a gift...

and actually I'm going to stop there because this kind of crap pisses me off...where people on the net use whatever excuse they can to download a song that they didn't pay for and try to make up some stupid excuse that they didn't steal it to begin with when they actually did...or for software.

If there is an organization that is trying to keep people from stealing music, movies, software, and so forth..than I am all for it..BUT..I'm not sure how they would do this.

And additionally (and I know I said I was going to stop " there "..etc..but...). I TOTALLY enjoy the songs that Bear, Raya, and all of his musicians / staff take the time to make for us. Some of his work is even posted on youtube where someone else has ripped his cd's and then upload it to a site like youtube. And even I think that is wrong.

I LOVE the SOCOM4 soundtrack and I'm going to purchase it really soon. But, it's totally possible to get the video from youtube..and then burn the audio to a disk..but that's stealing in my book..so I won't do that.

- End Of Line - :x

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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Location: UK
Harrison5 wrote:
Taking a movie or a song that you DID NOT pay for (by torrent or whatever) is stealing !!

This sort of rhetoric helps nobody. Copying is not stealing, legally or morally. Theft deprives the original owner of their property; copying does not. Copyright infringement is illegal, but conflating it with theft and similar angry rhetoric ignores the real issues and turns the whole thing into an us and them grandstanding match.

Ultimately, people pirating a creator's work are *fans*, and they do it for a whole variety of reasons, many of which can be dealt with in better ways than aggressive legal enforcement.

For example, if you go through the media on my computer, you will find a whole pile of pirated TV episodes. Why? Because they're TV shows I follow I can't legally/sanely get in the UK. Castle is a good example - it doesn't air at *all* in the UK, and the season 1 DVDs were released last November. None of the other seasons are available. I simply do not have any legal options for acquiring it. I'd quite happily pay a small fee per episode or per season to get a good quality download available when it airs in the US and without stupid restrictions, but I can't. (Sidenote: I technically can't even import the US DVDs because of the region code restriction!)

Castle isn't the only one, of course. Some of the other shows I've pirated, of which BSG is a good example, have been shown in the UK, but they're not shown at the same time, so I can't talk about them to my friends, and they're shown on premium channels I'd need an exorbitant monthly subscription to see, which simply isn't worth it for one or two shows.

And, of course, I'm in the UK! Most of the rest of the world will probably never get even the half-assed attempts at distribution that we get.

Does this make me an irredeemable thief needing legal penalties to stop me? Or would the best solution for everyone be to make things more available? Even without that, my rampant piracy of, for example, BSG has led to me purchasing the complete Blu-ray box set (£100) and, of course, all of Bear's BSG albums (6*£10-£20 or so, depending on shipping rates and so forth) (not to mention most of his other work..).


By and large, people want to support artists. Certainly there are some people who are never going to pay for their entertainment media, but if you magically prevent all piracy, are they going to start paying for it? I wouldn't count on it. Meanwhile, if even a fraction of the effort spent on lobbying and lawsuits and other enforcement had been spent building sane distribution systems, then my system would, for example, automatically download each new Castle episode in good quality as it airs, at a rate of perhaps $0.50 per episode or $5 for the whole season. (I base this hypothetical system on Steam, the popular video game distribution platform. That has its issues, but you only need to look at how wildly popular it is, especially the cut-price sales they hold, to see that the system works...)


I could go on, as this is a subject I feel quite strongly about, given I like my entertainment media and greatly respect the artists behind it, but I shall avoid growing my wall of text even further and simply direct people to TechDirt if they want to read more about this sort of thing.


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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:06 pm
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Location: Montpellier - France
Yeah and, as you said, you're in the UK, where the national language is the same as in the USA.

Most of good shows or movies, for example, are from USA and UK and when it is displayed in France, one year later or more, it's always translated in french. What if i want to watch the original version ? The only solutions remaining are download it or buy it, one year later, at a price i can't afford right now (or only if i decide not to eat for 3 days).

Everyone can guess I wish we come up with solutions to make this work, but the current system isn't working at all. Maybe i wouldn't care if I was living in the USA and if I was rich, knowing myself I doubt that but maybe, but right now what I can see is that every creations are a business before being an art, and I think that's a big problem.

I would surely love to have the means to thank the artists that bring me joy and passion, but until then, what am I supposed to do, just ignore what my earthling brothers made ? Every poor people should ignore that, so only rich ones can access to culture ?

Sure piracy isn't good, but when it's the only way, we can't allow meaningless actions trying to cut our freedom just because some rich corporations think they don't have all the money they should get (when this is probably not even true, but whatever).
What we need to do is act so the piracy doesn't remain the only way.


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 Post subject: Re: SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and stuff
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:28 am 

Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:05 am
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I fully agree that TV shows need a much better distribution.

For (most) music I have a Spotify subscription - soundtracks and stuff I still need to buy but I'm fine with that. Films, I'm fine with waiting and then renting from Lovefilm (which I also used for lots of games I want, but don't consider worth £40).

For TV there's nothing - and it's something I'm very impatient with. If there was something like Hulu which made content available online (worldwide) from when it's aired in the US then I would gladly pay. In the case of BSG there were literally about three days between the US and UK release (and at the time I had the channel on Sky) and couldn't wait that long.

At the moment, it's a case of downloading then buying the box sets - like BSG (I got the DVD, then upgraded to Blu-Ray) and Caprica (which I had to import from France).

As others have said - make it easier for people to buy the stuff* and a decent chunk of piracy will go away.


*Speaking of this, I almost downloaded the SOCOM 4 soundtrack because it was an iTunes exclusive...in the end I bit the bullet and punished my PC with iTunes just to buy it. Then uninstalled it - exclusives like this are also a really bad idea in my opinion.


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